Following on from this question: Can I True Polymorph a goblin into adamantine (and then forge him into a sword?)
Casting True Polymorph on an unwilling creature (relevant parts included only):
You transform the creature into a different creature…or into an object.The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to O hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full hour, the transformation becomes permanent. An unwilling creature can make a Wisdom saving throw, and if it succeeds, it isn’t affected by this spell.
Creature into Creature: The target assumes the hit points of its new form, and when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to O hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce the creature’s normal form to O hit points, it isn’t knocked unconscious.
Creature into Object: If you turn a creature into an object, it transforms along with whatever it is wearing and carrying into that form. The creature’s statistics become those of the object, and the creature has no memory of time spent in this form, after the spell ends and it returns to its normal form.
The consensus seems to be that if the creature fails the Wisdom save, you can transform it into a weak creature like a slug or an object like a cup, and can then wait for 61 minutes concentrating on the spell, then stamp on the item and kill it, permanently, because that was its new permanent form. But this seems terribly unbalanced, requiring a single wisdom save to be failed (and these can be influenced with features such as Heightened Spell and Magical Ambush) to kill any creature which can be polymorphed, no matter its stats. This also seems to make True Polymorph a better version of Power Word Kill (if delayed and requiring a save) since it is completely uncapped by health, only by Wisdom save proficiency, as well as including many other functions. This makes it seem unlikely this is the correct interpretation of True Polymorph since it renders another (already weak, for that level) spell almost entirely pointless.
I presumed the spell to be saying that after one hour of concentrating on it, the polymorphed form no longer needs to be concentrated on and could last forever, but will still revert back to the original form if reduced to 0 HP, as described in the linked question where the creature (polymorphed into crafting materials) was cut apart. This seems to make much more sense and retains balance.
Which interpretation is correct? Does the ‘permanent’ section overrule the ‘transforms back if reduced to 0 hit points’ part?
The Pathfinder rules are quite clear on what happens when you combine polymorph effects with size-changing effects. Namely, the size-changing effects do not function while a character is under the effects of a polymorph effect. But what about other transmutations that change a character’s physical form?
Examples: Brand, Countless Eyes, etc.
I can see this working in two ways:
- If a character is targeted by a transmutation effect, then a polymorph effect, the polymorph effect overrides the transmutation effect. But, if the polymorph effect is first, then the transmutation effect functions normally (by transmutation effect, I am referring to non-size-altering effects.)
- Both polymorph effects and transmutation effects alter the base creature, so the order in which spells are cast does not matter, as both are affecting the base creature, not the modified creature.
There is also the possibility that the transmutation effect simply does not function at all while a character is under the effects of a polymorph effect, but I have not seen evidence of that in the rules (where size-alterations are the only specifically mentioned effects that do not function).
A druid is the target of a Greater Brand. This spell specifically states that it cannot be removed, even temporarily, unless a Mark of Justice could be removed the same way. This spell might be a specific example that says that in this case, the spell functions even under the effects of a polymorph effect. So, when the druid wild shapes, the brand would still be visible.
But, what about a regular brand spell (not greater)? Would that remain during the effects of a wild shape?
What about Countless Eyes? The druid is covered in eyes, and then wild shapes. Are they now an animal that is covered in eyes? Or does the wild shape override that effect? If they are wild shaped, and they (or someone else) casts Countless Eyes on them, does the spell function normally?
Basically, I am wondering if order of spellcasting matters.
A bard has used magical secrets to select either Find Steed, or Find Greater Steed and has summoned a mount.
They then cast Polymorph on themselves and turn themselves into a T-Rex, because they are cool.
Find [Greater] Steed says
While mounted on it, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target the mount.
So Polymorph can affect both targets. However, since the steed is less than CR7 what happens?
- Both bard and steed both become a T-Rex
- Bard becomes a T-Rex and has to select a different form for the steed according to it’s CR
- The bard becomes a T-Rex but the spell fails on the steed
- The spell fails entirely because the steed isn’t a valid target to become a T-Rex
- The bard and steed become some kind of conjoined T-Rex abomination
If there is a difference between the spells, please use Find Greater Steed as the spell I care about, and assume the mount is a Griffon.
Partially inspired by this answer, what size of an object could you create with True Polymorph if the target was affected by Enlarge/Reduce? And what size would the object be after Enlarge/Reduce wears off?
True Polymorph says (among other things) (emphasis mine):
Creature into Object. If you turn a creature into an object, it transforms along with whatever it is wearing and carrying into that form, as long as the object’s size is no larger than the creature’s size. The creature’s statistics become those of the object, and the creature has no memory of time spent in this form, after the spell ends and it returns to its normal form.
Enlarge. The target’s size doubles in all dimensions, and its weight is multiplied by eight. This growth increases its size by one category– from Medium to Large, for example. […]
Reduce. The target’s size is halved in all dimensions, and its weight is reduced to one-eighth of normal. This reduction decreases its size by one category–from Medium to Small, for example. […]
The two spells both require concentration so they would of course have to be cast by two different people. The options I see here are
Medium creature is enlarged to a Large creature and then polymorphed into a Large object. Spell wears off and the Large object is now Medium object since it’s still a valid target for E/R.
Medium creature is enlarged to a Large creature and then polymorphed into a Large object. Spell wears off and the Large object is still a Large object as it’s no longer the original target of the spell since it targeted a creature in this instance.
Medium creature is enlarged to a Large creature and then polymorphed into a Medium object since the creature is normally Medium. E/R ends.
Some option I haven’t thought of.
I have a bard that has been true polymorphing into a dragon turtle and attacking coastal towns on a large island (think “Big Island” Hawaii) I am doing this so another member of my party can be true polymorphed into a bronze dragon adult and be seen “fighting” with me.
Our plan is for the fight to go into the ocean, then sometime later he as the bronze dragon will drag a part of a dragon turtle’ body out with him and declare himself their savior and new leader and/or guardian. then true polymorph on him will be dropped, he’ll say he used his dragon shapechange ability to look human. Then he will say he has to keep traveling to “right many wrongs” but that one day he will return.
Then at the end of the campaign if we are still alive, I will permanently make him an adult bronze (around 200 years old) and he will get to spend upwards of 5000 years retired and living as the king of an island nation. Also so he is a sailor background fighter so he plans to slowly reshape them into a sea fairing warrior people like the ancient Maori. He also plans to take a bride from the tribe once every generation till the whole island is full of dragon ancestry sorcerers and half-dragon humans.
We may not need the corpse head of a dragon turtle to pull this deception off we could say it died below the waves but it would help give us trick them and then for centuries the skull of a dragon turtle can adore their main village as a constant reminder of why they should follow him.
For context, my party is going to face a gargantuan (20 by 20 ft. or larger) creature with obscene levels of health, so would it be possible to make a demiplane and polymorph the gargantuan creature down to size and then shove it into the demiplane, trapping it there.
This spell transforms a creature that you can see within range into a new form. An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect. The spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points. The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or the target’s level, if it doesn’t have a challenge rating).
After trapping it there, would it be possible to release it in, let’s say, Hell or just a ‘void’? This is saying that the creature has utilised everything it can to resist magic and it is shoved into the demiplane.
This is saying that the creature has utilised everything it can to resist magic and it is shoved into the demiplane.
Can True Polymorph grant Legendary Resistance?
From the Monster Manual:
“If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn’t gain that form’s legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects.”
Which doesn’t seem to state anything clearly and specifically either way regarding legendary resistances.
Link to relevant question about other legendary abilities
I am a DM running a high-level campaign. My group has recently leveled up to 17, and one of the casters has taken True Polymorph. They have stated their intent to turn into the most powerful kind of dragon allowed by the spell, and use it in combat.
I am worried that the martial classes (Paladin & Rogue) in the party will feel overshadowed by this – after all, with a prep time of 1 action, this caster can turn into an Adult Gold Dragon that almost certainly possesses better mobility, greater or equal damage output, and a health pool twice or more the size of theirs. When that health pool is depleted, they return to “only” a 17th level caster down their 9th level spell slot.
So, I am asking this question to identify the ways in which high level martial characters can excel in their niches in ways that this caster cannot just by turning into a dragon/other high CR creature.
My intent with the answers I get is to implement them: i.e. structure the game such that it is one that supplies a set of challenges that make the martial characters feel useful and powerful, rather than a set that make them feel outclassed by the shapeshifted caster, regret their class choices, and feel like “transitional characters” whose only purpose was to get the casters to level 17.
Polymorph (Player’s Handbook v.3.5, p. 263) is based on Alter Self (Player’s Handbook v.3.5, p. 197) that reads, in part:
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
The spell referres to racial skill bonuses, where can I find them and does they replace my class-skills as long as I am polymorphed?
Let’s say that a wizard tries to create a vessel using True Polymorph. Now, a vessel is made of a main wooden body and many other parts, more or less “removable” (e.g. sails, wheel, furniture, crates, ropes). Are they created along with the main body? Is it necessary to roll for some knowledge check to determine the result?